(re)productive capitalIn my previous post, Does Marriage Keep Society Afloat?, I argued that it is essential to marry and have children to stem off a global financial downturn. The concept is simple: without a large tax base, the population gets top heavy and expenses exceed resources available. Costs go up leading to fewer and fewer marriages and pregnancies, creating a self-feeding, self-fulfilling downward spiral.
In the comment section, I explored a few unsatisfactory ways to address the problem. Sigma Frame discusses a few others. I ended with the only sensible alternative:
“The only way out of this, without significant side effects, is to support marriage and increase family sizes. This requires abolishing abortion and defeating feminism. I’ve stated this before and I’ll say it again and again. The refusal to marry and have children (e.g. MGTOW) is actively harmful and contributes to the self-feeding destructive downward cycle. I don’t care what the excuses are for not marrying and having children. Make it work. Otherwise wave the white flag and embrace feminism.”
Brother Ballista took issue with this:
Ramsey wants men to embrace feminism by getting married and having children. Therein lies the problem as Ramsey sees it – the weak men just aren’t playing along to make feminism work.
With all due respect, Brother Ballista is wrong. Marriage and family are not feminist concepts. They are the foundations of functioning society and must be embraced. They need to be taken back from the feminists, so to speak.
Defeating feminism is required to fully support marriage and increase family sizes. It’s an absurd strawman to say that this means men should marry feminists and have their babies. Of course they shouldn’t.* It’s also absurd to say that my statement only applies to men. Those men and women who refuse to marry and have children might as well throw in the towel.
Brother Earl is a perfect example of what I’m suggesting. He is a front line soldier with skin in the game. He is doing all he can to make it work. He is not making excuses. He is not compromising. He is constantly railing against what matters most: abortion, divorce, sexual immorality, and contraception. He is always seeking a wife and if he finds one, he will be making babies in no time.
He also can’t do it on his own. He needs others to support him. He needs unmarried men to join him in these areas.† He needs women to take marriage seriously and permanently. He needs happily married people to have more children, not stop at the magical two or three. He needs priests and pastors to explicitly push this and a church that will fight for it.
But make no mistake: if we don’t increase good marriages and the number of children in those marriages, feminism will win. None of the excuses, soapboxing, moaning and complaining will mean a thing if we don’t do this.
Feminists might breed themselves out of existence by refusing to reproduce, but who is going to replace them if the anti-feminists also refuse to reproduce? Where are the future anti-feminists going to come from? Feminism only needs to indoctrinate the children. Our counter is marriage and family. It’s the only one we have. We must find ways to do it and stop making excuses for not doing it.‡
When the Brothers scoff at having more children, their anti-feminist stances become meaningless.† Words and actions must go together. When they recommend against a proper marriage, they fight against the very tool required to solve the problem. Avoiding marriage and family is counterproductive, no matter how well-intentioned.
* It is entirely possible for a man to wife up a (hopefully repentant) feminist or single mother. Many do, as is their right as a man. Doing so is, of course, quite risky, but a man who chooses to do so needs our support, not our criticism.
† Not all men are marriage material, due to whatever personal flaws they might have. Such men should obviously not get married without making themselves marriage-worthy, but they can still do their part in the meantime by supporting those who are marriage-worthy.
‡ It is entirely possible that the entire system will have to burn to the ground before it can be resurrected. This is not ideal. We should avoid this outcome if at all possible by trying to fix the system as soon as possible, rather than waiting for some undetermined future, and possibly imaginary, inflection point.
Well I’ll tell you which Scripture passage where the light bulb finally came on…straight from God’s will to your ears.
You can’t base a marriage off lust, you can’t decide about a woman based off lust, and it’s certainly not God’s will that you operate your frame from lust…but from holiness. It’s right there…lusftul desire is the thing the heathens and pagans do. So I would venture to guess most failures in relationships and marriage…started off lust and not off God’s will.
How does feminism often try to control men…
I’d bet you my savings of wooden nickels it’s lust.
Even the globalists control freaks know that emasculated men running off ‘muh dick’ are easier to control. Why do they pump porn nonstop into the society?
More man-up shaming. Look, society exists to be a benefit to its members. The members don’t exist to benefit society. When society becomes a tyrant not a servant, it is no longer legitimate and needs to die. This is an established cycle in history. There will be no extinction event… God has actually promised this.
In fact, God’s own advice is for men to not get married if they can manage it. God’s own words are that sometimes men end up sexless because of society’s choices and not their own.
Complain all you want but I won’t stick my dick in crazy just to have kids I can’t afford and can’t protect from the government’s rapists. No demand or argument you make will ever change my mind… least of all your opening argument “the tax base is shrinking!”
Derek is simply laying it out.
I don’t have a wife. I’m glad and grateful for the lack of such a “blessing” – especially given the horror stories I regularly read in this comment section.
I also have a job that I like, roads to drive on, and the means to live a decent life.
There is a reason that these two propositions can be simultaneously true: and that is the surplus value created by married men, who voluntarily go into slavery in order to keep their wives happy. The excess is enjoyed by all of us. Since I know you’re not too stupid to understand the economics behind it, I assume you’re just ungrateful, which isn’t very polite, but whatever.
Boxer
Personally, I find this really annoying, but I’m enjoying the rest of your articles and the comments beneath them.
FYI: There is no copyright here. All of the content on this blog is the collective property of all men, everywhere. People have stolen my articles and reworked them almost since this blog’s inception, and they’re welcome to do so, with or without attribution.
While others missed the point, I see that you understood it completely. I hope others read your comment if they are unclear.
I wouldn’t call marriage slavery, but I do have to do many things in order to keep my wife happy. I do chores around the house to ease my wife’s burden. I open the car door for her. I put up with whatever crazy emotion she’s feeling today. She can treat me worse than I treat her. Whatever. Most of this stuff is no big deal. No marriage is perfect, but the benefits of marriage far, far outweigh the negatives.
I’m not sure why some people are surprised to learn that women act like women and not men. When you marry one you get a woman. Maybe all women are feminists by nature, I don’t know. It would explain a few things. It doesn’t change the economic calculus or the need to be fruitful and multiply.
I’ll take it as a good sign that this is the only problem you have with my articles. Out of deference to your house, I will cease to place that notice on any future articles.
I honestly don’t know what’s so subversive about what you’ve written, but I envy your ability to get people to denounce you. I haven’t seen people this upset since I posted those Lindy West nudes, back in the day…
Derek. Most Christian men would be lucky enough to have a wife like yours……and I have no idea what she looks like….doesn’t matter. Any woman in Christ who would openly welcome, adopt children that not only need parents in this world should, but special needss children (the REAL forgotten children) should be commended, and emulated. That is not putting “them” on a pedestal. That is not “goddess” worship. That is a woman who is striving to be that woman in Proverbs 31. A man who does things like you mentioned for your wife is not a “simp” or “whipped”
It’s a man who took his vows seriously before God and men, and he actually enjoys his wife’s company. The crew at Dalrock calls any man like this a “trad con” and just cannot believe a man could be this way to the woman he married. What a concept! He might just actually love her!!!!!
It speaks more about their choices, their wives, and themselves than it does you my friend.
I saw a marriage like this in my parents as well. Mom was sick? Dad took care of her. She was gonna be home late? He made dinner and put me and my brother and I to work. My parents actually enjoyed each others company.
Once in awhile…….out of the blue, dad would get me and my brother up early on a Sunday and just “leave” the house for a few hours……give mom some peace at home because he understood what she did for us, and him. Heaven forbid a wife might want a husband to love her! When she was dying from cancer, he bathed her, put up with her sickness……..and watched the only thing he loved wither and die…….heck….Newt Gingrich brought divorce papers for his wife to sign while she was in a hospital being treated for cancer. He’s hailed as a “no nonsense real man” in many circles.
It’s over for me. Gotta try deal. Harder some days. Easier others. Just sayin’ that you have exactly what I wanted in a marriage, and its not an “envy” but it a congrats.
Are you speaking about the passage about eunuchs? Because I’m not sure becoming a eunuch because of corrupt state laws and sexually immoral women is an option. You can certainly be a voluntary one for the Kingdom of Heaven…which given the sexually immoral women and corrupt state laws might not be a bad idea in order to serve the Lord more.
It’s my superpower. Works in meatspace too. I don’t really have an explanation.
Ironically, my marriage is remarkable for its near lack of conflict.
Jason – i enjoy reading your comments. I feel that you have a more realistic grasp on reality than many of the other posters in some of these other parts. At the end of the day, there is work that goes into a marriage, but we are all fallen, and there are no guarantees that any given marriage will withstand the test of time. As someone posted on these parts recently (Sharkly? RPL?) it takes two to make a marriage work, but only 1 person for it to come apart. All the shit-posters make it seem like their marriages are intact due to how Alpha they are… NOT TRUE. Which is why i appreciate Boxer posting as he does about the trials of Brad Pitt and Johnny Depp. Morally, i find little to admire in these guys. But the fact that they give wimminz tingles but still get to go through the divorce meat grinder and the false accusation circus only proves the point. Society is now in full clown world mode. Anyway, Jason, you keep doing you brother!
Thanks Anon from NYC. Dalrock just banned me, and I am not upset at him…….I actually told him to do so “if you don’t like what I post, just ban me”
Well, he did. Fair enough. He’s not going to be losing any sleep, and neither will I. The world was a-turning before Dalrock told us all the truth about feminism (lol), and men were getting married long before Deep Strength was writing a book about ‘christian masculinity’ and Nathaniel Bradshaw in the late 1950’s was saying what Rollo is saying now.
My problems with the man-o-sphere in general is that they complain…..oh they complain about women nonstop. They are shocked that their amazing “game and frame” hasn’t just convinced many Christian men to fall into line, do as they say…renounce their past, and call these men their new leader. I find it funny, most of these men who worship Rollo and Cane Caldo over Jesus Christ…..and when they “can’t” get a man like me to swallow many of their half brained truths use the same Game techniques they do on women. The put downs, the outright smearing…..the passive aggressive behavior……. and the usual “I’m a real man, and your not” snideness that makes me really wonder how great their marriages indeed are. Who is behaving like a woman here?
They also really don’t know me. I have on many occasions been very “french” over the years…….just been a contrarian. Throw out an idea or situation to see how they respond. Sometimes I was indeed taught a lesson. You know……I would think, “right, okay, I’m a turd……they defended themselvesand brought something up I never would have thought”
Most of the time, it was a fit of rage, the splicing of comments to put them out of context and outright boorish behavior. I think they were in the end more upset that they could not talk to someone, let alone defend their ideas to a person who was “hopelessly Beta” and not really that smart. Yeah, let’s crack open the treatiese of Rollo, Cane, DS and others…hmmm, hey….seventiesjason is supposed to be under out thumb! We’re amazing leaders! We know it all! How come he won’t submit! Our advice is simple and basic………..there are no good women, but to attract all these no good women do this, do that, do the other……….AWALT, no but NAWALT…….for a bunch of people who claim the word of God “as is” there is a ton of foul language, un-Christlike behavior and the endless division of what is red pill, purple pill, blue pill, alpha, beta, zeta, sigma-nu-deltoid…..it goes on.
A real alpha man would inspire, would answer questions. would lead………we’re instead handed a list to “vett” women, but with the same slight “there are no real Christian women left, I happened to get one, and you can too………. but if you don’t? God doesn’t promise you a wife, well…..there are no good women…..look, even Solomon said it in the Bible!”
We’re told a code of conduct from 1311 or whatever subterfuged Christianity and made all men spineless, except them…..the real PUA’s……I mean “Christian Men” of the world.
Alpha to the Christian man-o-sphere means “how many women were into me before I became a Christian, how many women I dated, how many I got naked with…….but I repented and came to my senses when I met my wife….but don’t you ever, ever have sex! That’s a sin…well, unless I do it. God forgives.”
I’ve been in the sphere since 2011 or so……….I’ve been reading MGTOW content before there was ever a term for it, and while most of these men were “banging” away in 1996, I was reading blogs by “Deep Water” and “Martian Bachelor Weatherman Page”
All this info is useless in the end. I was hoping to make some friends, but these men don’t want friends. They want total submission to their way, and you are “bitter” if you dare cross a line and disagree. Heaven forbid if you are a Christian who likes Matt Chandler and you have a good marriage! You might as well kill youself or paint yourself blue, and tattoo “chump” on yourself. Over the past six or seven years……I have seen a bunch of grown men chest thump about how smart, great, amazing and just how “right” they are.
They cannot understand in the end why men…..that vast swath OUT THERE who indeed need a Savior in Christ wouldn’t want anything to do with them. You can’t tell them anything. They know it all. They are soooooooo angry that they cannot “make” all these Betas succumb to their only way. Shows how much they know in the end.
Am I a loser with women? Yeah. Does it hurt? Yeah. Will it matter when I breathe my last? No.
It’s a circle jerk, and I am surprised I wasn’t banned sooner. I probably will be better off without that place. It riled me up on more than a few occasions. Vampires like to suck the life and ambition outta people…..that chat and forum is full of them. Dalrock himself isn’t too bad in all honesty, it’s the crew of commenters there for the most part…..
Anyway NYC……..as a native born Upstater, I am supposed to “hate” anyone who lives in Westchester County, NYC and Long Island. You are welcome anytime here in California. Oh…..yeah, we do have running water up in Essex County now. It was great on my last visit to New York State in 2017 ..
Dear Jason:
Sorry for butting into your conversation with Anon. Please see below…
To begin with, I’m sorry you got banned. I’m a little jealous of all you guys who have been banned on Dalrock’s blog. I think he refused to ban me simply out of a sadean impulse that I grudgingly respect and admire. Anyway, I think you’re taking that sort of rejection in the proper way. You could have your own blog again by pushing a button, and if you don’t want to do that, you’ve got an account here, and I’ll post whatever you want to tell him.
I like a lot of Rollo’s work; though I don’t agree with a lot of it. I don’t know how Cane Caldo can be put into the same sentence as he. Like him or not, Rollo writes books, and they’re both humorous and insightful. Cane Caldo finds it hard to parse a complete sentence, constantly injecting sesquipedalia that he doesn’t understand himself, in a homosexual attempt to make himself sound brainy. (Lyn 87 used to poke at him about this, and the results were hilarious.) He waxes on about the noble white race and how proud he is to have been born a member, while his white ass contributes absolutely nothing to the world to further this tradition he yaps about. He’s hated by nearly everyone, and to be hated back by him is nothing if not a high compliment.
On a macro level, Dalrock’s comment section is way too big to foster any sort of meaningful discussion. His brutal mismanagement of it has intensified the problem. Dalrock ruthlessly culls sensible dissidents, while allowing brain-dead yes men carte blanche. Nearly all the voices on Dalrock chant the same mantra, and if you’re not one of the disgruntled misfits who is there to constantly pat him on the back for losing his latest argument, then he has no use for you. It’s sorta sad, because he’s pretty funny when he goes to Yahoo! and Tumblr and trolls the feminists, but none of those external successes have helped him to build a community for serious men. What you find on his own site is more like a digital short bus, packed with screaming mental patients, on an eternal ride to nowhere.
Best,
Boxer
Jason, no skin off your nose. As Boxer points out, the comments section there is way to unwieldy. I don’t recall how I first stumbled across dalrock’s but I think it mustve been sometime in 2015 b/c a search of my mailbox shows that I had forwarded a few links from his blogs to friends and other folks starting in 2015. It took me a while, but I have come to the conclusion (that many others have reached too) that it really is an echo chamber. Not ALL of the commenters, but many (Cane stands out, but also Oscar can sometimes go into rah rah rah cheerleader mode too). I always liked what you had to post, and how you played devil’s advocate over there. I also enjoy hearing what Scott has to say, and it was through a comment on dalrock’s about a year ago that I stumbled across Aaron Renn — so it wasnt all a waste of time… but the whole squabble with warhorn media does seem like one big circle jerk… an internecine scrimmage blown WAY out of proportion that has ZERO EFFECT on anything that either side is claims it is trying to do…
anyway, you guys should do an online search for Aaron Renn Masculinist to see what he has to write. The tone/tenor at dalrock’s is defeatist, which is very strange to read on a so-called Christian blog… I am a Christian (flawed and a sinner like everyone else) but the biblical worldview gives me hope that from an eternal perspective, justice will be meted out by our Creator. The tone at dalrocks is just overly pessismistic — and it is nonstop. Which is why I like that Aaron Renn alternates his monthly offerings between looking at how shitty things are in the world at large, to highlighting strategies and things that work to bring change…
Boxer, as always, thanks for running this site and letting us post.
Anon from NYC
Unless you are a woman, then only continuous public shaming is good enough for you.
Nah…..I have nothing to say to him. Really I don’t have much of a problem or issue with Dalrock proper. Like I said, most of his commenters are really, really, really *mean* people. And that includes Scott, I could never tell if he was “making fun of me” or honestly just hated everything about me. Doesn’t matter.
Don’t feel sorry for me. It’s okay.
No kidding Derek. Any woman that has a kid out of wedlock or has more than 2, or 3 partners needs to sit in a corner for the rest of her life…..even if she repents…..she’s filthy garbage, and should live that life in a corner, be shamed in church and at Judgment Christ will “maybe” accept her into heaven. These men would then “question” the Savior Himself for this if he did let them in. That’s how arrogant they are.
It’s no wonder the man-o-sphere will never really become a force in Christianty. Most men just want a wife, children and a good marriage. If they have to follow a book about holding Frame 24 hrs a day “or your wife will rebel” makes me wonder why they all got married to begin with……ah, they found the NAWALT…..they are just so naturally amazing.
When a husband and wife are both striving towards the Cross and what He taught us, usually the marriage works overall well. These men have some sort of deeper agenda……and they hate the fact that a good number of Christian men, young….middle aged and older have decent marriages without them.
Dear Jason & Derek:
You’ve done a wonderful job encapsulating what I find so frustrating about the ‘sphere generally. Most of these snake-oil salesmen will wax on for weeks about how you just need to line up an infinite number of tokens or tells, and that’s the way you find yourself a NAWALT.
When you ask these same men about their own personal NAWALT, however, they quickly either clam up or spin an obvious series of lies. “My wife is supermodel beautiful… My wife had never even kissed a boy before she rode my cock on our wedding night… My wife has a Ph.D. in rocket science though she quit her seven figure job to homeschool my eighteen kids…” blah blah
In reality, these guys are married to normal women, ranging 3-7 on the looks scale, and they’ve been incredibly lucky in that their women haven’t (yet) waltzed down to the divorce courts to get those papers filed. I’m happy that they’ve been (so far) successful, and don’t wish them any ill, but it becomes obvious that they are just as clueless as the rest of us.
Scott is personal friends with Cane Caldo. Other than a general warning not to give him any personal information about yourself or your real-world location, I think he’s O.K.. I did laugh pretty hard at this, though…
Some of us were silly enough to burn 5+ years of our lives for the privilege of being called “doctor…” Only the silliest of us append our degrees to the ends of our names as though they mean anything in the overall world. Some of my colleagues from grad school are still adjuncts, and at least one works at a car dealership during the summer. I wonder if that girl put “Ph.D.” on her business cards, and whether she demands her clients call her “doctor” as she’s taking them out to test drive a used Sentra.
seventiesjason,
It’s my opinion that Dalrock would not have banned you, but you essentially asked for it. He asked why you bothered to comment there if it was so terrible. You responded along the line of “Why don’t you ban me then?” and he effectively called your bluff. It’s probably better for all.
If they share anything with feminists…it’s puffing up their own egos and making their lives sound like it’s better than everyone elses. They are either expert liars or experts in embellishing their actual reality. Of course they won’t tell you their wife/girlfriend will have the same rebellious tendencies no matter how good their frame is.
I think the snake oil part is thinking having frame somehow reverses a woman’s programming from the womb she’s basically a goddess.
Now. Some personal reflection. For my situation. I just still cannot accept “it’s over” for me wife-wise and that I suppose is the deepest and reddest pill of all to swallow. Hence some of the anger and festering wounds I have. Some of this my own *damn* fault. Agreed. Some just “circumstance” and genetics? Okay, I can accept that too. Wrong place and the wrong time? Yes. If I had been born 1940, I am quite confident I could have been married.
I think the advice in the man-o-sphere probably could help a normal guy under the age of 30 because it’s the same as PUA, GAME, Game redux, PUA-lite, and Frame stuff. Now for a Christian man under the age of 30? Jury is still out on that. I doubt it would work for the most part. Notice the men who did get the NAWALT were the ones who had vast dating, sexual and social experience during the formative teenage years. Except for the all star wonder boy in the church, who never had a problem anyway with the girls really has to worry too much. Sure, Game et al could help polish a rough diamond.
None of the men in these forums are going to “chain” their daughter to the house, let her live a life a la “the glass menerge” and wait for a solid, upstanding, accomplished, and good looking Christian man to come a-courtin’ at 21. No young man will for the most part will be “good” enough for his amazing, talented, Godly, virginal daughter. They would all say differently, but I doubt a man who loves Jesus in action and practice and works as a farm hand at age 23 would be allowed to “date” let alone marry their daughter. Out would come the “tradcon” thing of being a “provider” and so many of the dads in these forums would be bullying the husband after they were married. Call it hunch.
I have my own opinions, and I come through with a thick spyglass of “looks” mattering more to women than they and even Christian men would like to admit.
We view dating / sex / love / endearment through the same focus of “equality”. Game is good for selling this, because it really sells hard to that younger man who was never a hit with the ladies “hey bro….looks don’t matter. Women can’t help who they fall for, we have a system / process / tools to make you into a man of action and for you to just be something women cannot resist.”
Prize horse’s ass Neil Strauss (The Game) even mentioned in 2006 or thereabouts that you do indeed have to have something, and looks do play a part in it.
We are not all equal. None of are equal in looks, socialization, intelligence, inheirited wealth, class, or social status. On one hand, the men in the man-o-sphere will tell you, that doesn’t matter……then they will tell you it does matter. It’s a muddled pool of misplaced theories, ideals, and optimism tinged with a very dark spin that shames you for not being like them or when their “foolproof” theories do not work.
As hard as it is to really tell the truth to someone……..men over the age of 35, especially Christian men who were never married, no children, and have a very questionable dating life or non-existent one really need to be told in love. In genuine Christian fellowship, and with a a man who can listen, help and guide…..
“Look, it’s probably not going to happen”
That man needs to be encouraged hard core to find the things they like for what they are. He doesn’t need Scripture. He needs the truth to be told, and he needs men in the church to have his back, and HELP him be a leader in areas that he is capable of leading. He needs to understand he belongs, and matters to the flock, and the congregation. As corny as it sounds, this man will have to find hobbies, pursuits and tasks to do in his own life.
If I was honestly told this at that age………painful as it would be….as bad tasting as a chemo treatment on Christmas Day……..I would probably be WAY further along in my career, and I probably would have saved myself a bunch of pain at my age….that I am still trying to “write” myself out of.
Now, is this the rule? Will there be exceptions? Yes. With that said, a lot of men in this situation have been lied to by church, women, society, the dating experts, the PUA’s, the popular married crowd for so long………..the truth will indeed help them, and more than a few would probably respect the man telling them because it was the truth.
Just one man’s opinion. I wish Dalrock et al well. I wish Game be retired to the dustbin of history and I pray men can indeed learn to love in a way that Christ called them to be in brotherhood.
-end
Okricketey
Read my first reply to NYC above. I mentioned this. Don’t turn the convo into something it isn’t. Yes, that place is a circle jerk.
The percentage of virgins is approximately the same as the percentage of homosexuals, population wide. Accordingly, it should be about the same level of difficulty to pair up among each group: challenging but not impossible……. except that the number of virgins reasonably available to you starts high and then declines rapidly over time.
I’ll sound like a broken record: if you want to marry, try to get married young to increase your lifetime odds. If you wait (or have bad luck) until 35, you probably won’t find the woman you’ve always wanted. It’s a risk vs availability tradeoff.
I’m happy to describe my faults or strengths in marriage, and I’ll describe her strengths, but by and large I won’t discuss her weaknesses in a public forum. This is intentional and I wouldn’t want anyone to think otherwise.
I will sometimes give general marital advice informed by my experiences, but I try to be vague and sometimes extrapolate. My marriage is far from perfect and there are areas that manosphere men would condemn my wife (and myself). For that reason it remains private.