[Editor: The following is a response to Lori Alexander‘s comments surrounding her (ever controversial) post on how men prefer debt-free virgins. It was penned by our brother Necro. Visit his blog here.]
Hi Lori
I appreciate very much you had the integrity of character to publish my comment, but you avoided the salient point of my concern.
Your main argument in your article here is the disparaging view you hold towards men, in that the only basis for couples moving in together is to meet the so called “boyfriends” sexual needs, and for someone to cook and clean for him….you portray men as opportunistic sexual fiends who use women for sex without the need for a serious commitment to them, i.e “marriage”
Now this might be or might not be the case with some couples but to entirely omit a WOMAN’S manifold reasons for moving in together, based on HER motives and reasoning’s, is not only disingenuous but shows an inherent bias on your part, which I feel needs to be addressed by you in all honesty, after all, you do claim to stand on the side of truth!
Throwing this at me, and I quote…… ” Here are a bunch of Bible verses about what God thinks about fornication (having sex outside of marriage)”
Like I said I fail to see how that addresses my concerns that I raised?
There were well over 100 verses quoted in that list on fornication you gave me! (Lori sent me a link here of the standard right wing conservative position of “fornication” and how it is wrong)
Something for you to consider though in your continual stand for the truth
1: Not one of them mentions the word “fornication”…….I thought those verses were meant to be about the actual term involved?
Those verses mention the term “sexual immorality” but NOT fornication. Sexual Immorality is a very broad term that not only is entirely subjective, based on one’s own definition of what constitutes “morality”, but it also means simply sexual activity that is not moral, and this is used regardless of the person’s married state or not, so it certainly cannot be used as proof texts against your phrase “sex before marriage”
2: The bible is indeed against “Fornication”, make no mistake about it, but YOU have assumed the term is defined as sex outside or before marriage, but be careful Lori, the scriptures are not so clear cut on this issue as you may think
For e.g, one of the biblical definitions of “Fornication”, and I’m substituting your term of “sexual Immorality” here, is the practice of SODOMY….see Jude 1:7
Also, see 1st Corinthians 6:13-18 where Fornication is very narrowly defined as sex with a harlot/prostitute, and this is regardless of the person’s marriage state, ….so to categorically go around and tell others that Fornication is sleeping with your boyfriend/girlfriend before you’re married, as you do here in your article, is not only untruthful but showing an ignorance of HOW the bible defines it’s own terms….Instead what we’ve done is to insert our own theological and cultural bias into the term “Fornication” without understanding what the actual word really means as God defines it
3: One of the strongest arguments that Fornication cannot possibly mean sex before marriage, as Conservative Christians use that term, is the passage in Matthew 19:9 where Jesus described a situation where putting away your WIFE should not happen, UNLESS she commits Fornication
Question: How is it possible to have sex BEFORE marriage, once you’re already married? Answer: It isn’t possible!!, so the term Fornication CANNOT mean an action that occurs before you get married, because Jesus said that a wife can commit the act of Fornication while she IS married, present tense!, and we know that is not referring to a time in the betrothal period, because Jesus used the specific term γυνή meaning WIFE
Anyway these few verses I’ve provided should provide sufficient proof that the term “Fornication” certainly DOES NOT mean sex before marriage in every case, so at the end of the day, the question remains, should we be condemning others for committing the so called sin of Fornication when 1: we don’t define the term how God defines it, and 2: there is dispute for what the actual term means
Also, Lori, I’m not too sure if you’ve considered this, but we can’t go around condemning others for sleeping together before marriage, unless we define what the bible defines as “marriage” and believe me that’s a topic for a whole other day! lol
Once again, I do thank you Lori, for allowing me to comment here in your blog, and I hope this comment here will provide an impetus for challenging and inspired discussion for everyone here who reads these comments!
I welcome everyone’s thoughts here, and I am certainly open to being corrected if I’m wrong, and I will be back to see how this plays out lol
Thanks Lori
God bless
From a fellow lover of truth
Lori apparently deleted this post and refused to publish subsequent commentary. In the interest of free-expression and in the spirit of open debate, a response is being published here.
Lori
Looks like I was wrong about you having any sort of “integrity” as you conveniently chose to NOT publish my comment. I thought that was a bit odd so I did more research on who you are, and it confirmed my worst fears about you
Many sincere, Godly Christians have been exposing you in their blogs, social media platforms etc, and they ALL paint the picture of you as an incredibly insecure, oft times heartless, and self righteous, narcissistic woman who simply will not allow any critique of your views or allow any dissenting comments to be allowed on your channels. You are simply too full of pride to allow correction and reproof
And to be honest Lori, I agree with those views about you wholeheartedly. I find your veiled disparaging views against men disgusting, and I attempted to pull you up on it, and I used scripture to refute and gently admonish your views on Fornication, all to no avail
It must be nice to sit in your little echo chamber, in your little enclosed bubble, while you vomit out your self righteous, sanctimonious, far right garbage, whilst deliberately avoiding any censure or rebuke from others who try to reprove you as the scriptures command 2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
You claim to stand for the truth, but you conveniently run and hide from any criticism, you cowardly block any comments that pull you up on your errors, you harshly condemn others with no compassion or love in your judgment of them, you show an inherent bias against men whilst pretending to be against feminism, so my question to you Lori is, where is the Godly fruit being evidenced in your so called ministry?
There is not even any repentance by you as your latest blog post: https://thetransformedwife.com/why-men-want-their-wives-to-work/ yet again reveals more of your disgusting and veiled disparaging views on men, as you attempt to blame them for apparently wanting their wives to go out to work, instead of holding women accountable for their OWN DECISIONS to work outside the home
To be honest Lori, I find your sneaky, belittling attacks on men disgusting….but you disguise it very well, as you seek to come across to the world as a Transformed wife”…..No you’re not, you’re a self absorbed, narcissistic, feminist with the Spirit of Jezebel controlling you, I don’t find you submissive or Godly at all. I think it’s time you stop teaching, which by the way is forbidden for women to teach anyway see: 1Ti_2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Please go back under the headship of your husband, submit entirely to him in everything, and then seek to make reconciliation to all the people you’ve hurt over the years by taking down your sinful blogs
Knowing what a coward you are Lori, this comment will not see the light of day, and either your husband, or one of your dedicated worshipers will delete this comment before you get to see it, but God will see it, and what is concealed in the darkness will be brought to the light
You are a disgrace to womanhood everywhere, and you are direct proof why the bible forbids women to have any teaching role or authority over men, because the result is just disastrous and wickedly sinful as your cowardly attempt to hide from the truth demonstrates.
Awesome work my friend…..lts time we expose the far right’s hypocrisy which is as every bit as pathetic as the leftist liberal SJW’s out there
I don’t know enough about Lori to make a judgement call on all that, but the fact that she is one who teaches scripture to other with is huge red flag for me, as it is forbidden in scripture (quite plainly, too). It wouldn’t surprise me, though. Women are women, after all.
Well said @SnapperTrx , well said
Every single woman who believes she is called to the ministry is on violation of the fundamental principle that under no circumstances is a woman allowed to teach, especially if men are present
I know enough about Lori now to know if she is deleting comments that try to straighten her out doctrinally then she is a FAKE and at best a coward
I’ll give an opposing viewpoint. Lori’s Blog is where she tries to reach the world with what she feels is God’s message. She controls what comments get posted, so she isn’t going to post something that takes her views down hard, or makes a great case for the opposite side of an argument. Under a different name, I have made a lot of posts to her blog. Many of them gently nudging her into what I feel is a more reasoned or Biblical position. About 75% of my posts get posted. I often have to really tone what I want to say to come across as more in agreement to insure a better chance of getting my comment posted. In general I think Lori is about 90% correct in what she tells women, which is a lot higher than most church leaders. That is why I try to gently influence her towards what I feel is correct, because she is about the most correct Christian woman out there doing what she does. If my comment is too inflammatory or counter to what she believes, it doesn’t get posted. On a few rare occasions my comment gets posted early in the day, and then gets removed later. I’m just guessing here, but Lori’s husband Ken stays up late and gets up late, while Lori goes to bed early and gets up early, I think she may get Ken’s opinion on some things, after he gets up, and follow the instruction that he gives her. My impression is that Ken is a bit more Blue Pill than Lori, and he often seems to think he is helping by walking Lori’s most provocative truths back a bit. I have had quite a bit of contact with Ken in the past, and so if I really want to confront him I contact him directly, knowing he will be far more open to debate and criticism privately. Ken really tries to be a helpful fellow, but, like most everybody, he was raised Blue Pill. He is cautious about adopting Red Pill truth, because he doesn’t really have as much need to as some of us, considering the differences in our situations. He has the benefit of living with Lori, who is even more Red Pilled than he is, and knows what he needs and actively tries to give it to him cheerfully. So I get why he often has trouble seeing and believing what some of the others of us live with constantly. Feminism and Chivalry has infected our culture and all of us. And most of us, who aren’t crazed liberals, are in some stage of trying to rid ourselves of their overreaching cuckolding vestiges. Some just aren’t as far along as others. I feel like I’ve even had a bit of influence on their views. Obviously not as much as you or I would like, but I do feel like I am able to have a small influence. They’re good people, trying to do their best, they just have not as fully realized some of the truth of the Red Pill reformation, and they think that those ahead or behind them are wrong, and that they are right. I’m sorry your interaction with them has upset you. I know how frustrating it can be to know the truth and have those around you refuse to see it. You might pray that their eyes would be opened more. And if you do want her to post your submissions, I think using gentle redirection, and citing Bible verses that obviously back your point, will increase you chances of getting your views posted on her site.
I would also add that LA does not set herself up as a Bible teacher in the same way that, say, Beth Moore does. Her blog is a) directed to women, and b) mostly confined to telling us to love our husbands, stay home and have kids, marry young, don’t have abortions, etc. This doesn’t seem to me to go outside her remit as an older Christian woman advising younger Christian women. Sharkly is right that her comments section is heavily censored, and my husband thinks that’s rather silly (“Why have a comments section at all if it’s just an echo chamber?”) but of course it is her right to conduct her blog as she sees fit. And of course it is Necron’s right to disagree.
She’s speaking to a very tiny minority of women, and women like her are married to the awesome men on Dalrocks forum, or similar forums……….
Something to think about.
From here:
https://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/bible-verses-about-fornication/
The modern dictionary definition of fornication is voluntary sexual intercourse between persons not married to each other, which would include adultery.
That would cover a married person having sex with someone other than their spouse. It would also cover two folks who end up getting “married” having sex with each other before they are “married”.
That definition has always worked for me. The problem is the definition of marriage in that statement. As long as guys and girls have had access to each others’ knickers, we have had babies. Babies can’t care for themselves, and a pregnant woman can hardly care for herself, and the parents of the pregnant woman have done enough caring for her while she passed through childhood. So – due at least to outright necessity – social groups have always had social marriages, wherein the young man and woman must care for each other so the rest of society doesn’t have to. But there are also the unions between a man and a woman of which God says, “what I have joined together, let not man put assunder”.
I don’t think God is going to unite to each other and both to himself in vows and a covenant those who reject God’s authority over their lives. I think that social marriages and Biblical marriages are separate animals (although I accept that some marriages can be both). So – to which form of “marriage” does that “not married to each other” definition of fornication apply?
Given all of that, I can see why someone would not want to get into the weeds discussing the details of those two types of marriage in their blog. Which is where the conversation would have ended up if Lori had allowed it.
In the end, it is not a particular sin that condemns us. It is rejecting the Holy Spirit’s call to repentence that does the condeming. There are scriptures in the New Testament that make this clear that I won’t link to now. Based on this, I don’t think God cares that sinners sin (they are already condemned for not repenting; one more sin won’t make the situation worse). But I think he cares if the redeemed sin. And based on that, we might surmise that the conversations in the Bible about fornication have Biblical marriages in view, not secular ones. Regarding fornication, I posit that the Bible is talking to those who have accepted God’s claim on their lives.
It’s an offense against the sixth commandment. All sexual immorality is.
‘The tradition of the Church has understood the sixth commandment as encompassing the whole of human sexuality.’
‘2353 Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young.’
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm
Take the Catholic church teaching along with the Webster’s Richard presented…and you see the main definition of fornication is sex between and unmarried man and woman. Marriage and sex go together like God intended and anything outside of that is not from God.