A few years ago, I started writing a series of articles attempting to isolate the motivations of people who described themselves as Men Going Their Own Way (MGTOW men). After a decade of talking to men in the MGTOW community, running an MGTOW forum (with AfOR), and writing this blog, I’ve come to some conclusions about the teleological pillars of the movement as it exists today.
- MGTOW men want to find happiness, in a world that intends for them to become beasts-of-burden.
- MGTOW men want to purge themselves, as far as possible of what Karl Marx called ideology, that is, false states of consciousness. MGTOW men thus want to interact with the world as it is.
- MGTOW men want to delineate necessary desires, in order to re-configure their lives without worrying about unnecessary desires.
- MGTOW men want authentic community.
Earlier I described my conversations with MGTOW men who tended to lean on two schools as the foundations of their personal thought. The Lockean types would likely find support for pillars 1 and 4. The Marxist types would likely find support for pillars 1, 2, and 4. Notable is the fact that none of the theorists that MGTOW men typically call upon is ready or able to discuss pillar 3.
I’ve always found one of the unique aspects of MGTOW thought to be the ability to intuit between necessary and unnecessary desires. For example:
In this testimonial, an MGTOW man describes his awakening to the unnecessary nature of the desire toward sex and marriage. He goes on to describe this as deeply meaningful, something that has led him to a “tranquil and peaceful life.”
One will note the contrast to the typical game guru, who typically acknowledges marriage and family life as an unnecessary, socially constructed desire, but who will turn around and describe having sex as absolutely necessary to a man’s life. The typical game salesman will not stop there. He’ll often construct phony necessities, such as having sex with a variety of different women. Even a cursory knowledge of history suggests that this is ridiculous. Our grandfathers seemed to be pretty happy, for example, without gaming and banging countless low-quality wimminz at the nightclub every weekend. Far from being “red pilled,” the game gurus who sell these fantasies are the ultimate conformists, who serve to prop up the feminist state by making their gullible acolytes more susceptible to the eroticized advertising that is everywhere present, thanks to corporate culture.
In the next couple of posts, I will continue to argue that this sensitivity to necessity is a unique aspect of MGTOW thought, and I’ll begin to tie this aesthetic imperative to someone who predates modern thought entirely. His name was Epicurus.
You’re now losing me here friend Boxer. All the psychology I ever took was the intro classes in undergrad and that back in 1989…..and the professor used “Psychology, An Introduction” by William James……and I found him to be more of a pragmatic styled philosopher of sorts than a hard biting psychologist. I recall at first being stumbled by the American Victorian venacular of the language at the time…..but I did find his humor here and there really good as I got used to it.
the “ologies” you are using are way over my head….and most MGTOW as well.
I have never heard any discussions about “delineate necessary desires” in any forum. I have heard about how to get a motorcycle license. How to help balance your finances……..some good help from the the then “older” guys in the chats back twenty years ago telling me “hey, you’re not alone”. Perhaps they are what you have deduced from your observations inside and on MGTOW. Fine….but to most men on the inside or who have been on the inside (myself included) its way over my head.
Dear Jason:
Your criticism is valuable and I appreciate it. Please see inside text…
The reason I started this blog was to improve my writing; and, while I think it’s improved a great deal in the last few years, I’m still not as proficient as I’d like to be. I blame grad school.
One guy that was really a master of prose was Dalrock (I’m sure I’ll get jeered at for pointing out this eternal truth, but so be it.) He was really great at writing with equal measures of precision and accessibility.
Anyway, I think I can try to explain what I mean below.
The guys you talked to had one thing in common: They didn’t think that sexual intercourse (in either the ‘husband’ or the ‘playa’ context) was necessary to living a happy and fulfilling life. My basic argument is that this is what separates MGTOW men, like us, from both traditionalists and Roissy style ‘game’ merchants. MGTOW is a lifestyle which has bifurcated desire itself, and strictly defines the desires that are necessary, while deprecating unnecessary desires.
We both know that sex is unnecessary for being happy. Don’t get me wrong. I like sex (I had some today) and I often pursue it, but I also go for stretches without it (I’m yearning for a bit of celibate peace right now.) Both Roissy and Derek will imply that I am not whole as a celibate, but they (and both the groups they represent) are wrong. I am the same man when I am celibate as when I am fucking three women in the same 24-hour period. I am capable of being happy in both those phases. In fact, I’m more often untroubled when I don’t have a stable of spinning plates. You seem happy, despite the lack of a wimminz to bang. Is this not so? Thus, the desire for sex is an unnecessary desire.
I hope that is easier to understand. I’ll try and re-write this entry at some point, after I think a bit.
Best,
Boxer
Consider the recent question “What’s the point of a Christian girlfriend?” Find the right girl and marry her quickly. Don’t fool around. Dating is the begrudging step to get from single to married. Why would a man do this?
Fair enough, but this is mutually exclusive with MGTOW. Can a man be MGTOW and live a tranquil and peaceful life if they don’t see sex and marriage as unnecessary? Or perhaps MGTOW is the journey to reach that end.
Isn’t that also why married man can’t be MGTOW? I exercised discipline so I didn’t overly “burn with passion” during my semi-lengthy dating period, but there was no way I would ever come to accept that sex and marriage were unnecessary. I’m not wired that way. To wit:
I don’t see how MGTOW men generalize delineation of necessary desires over unnecessary desires. Sure, it makes sense that they might specifically reject “unnecessary” male/female interactions. Are MGTOW specially wired for efficiency? I guess I’ll have to wait for the rest of the series to find out.
But what about the married man who realizes this same thing?
That’s the umbrella of MGTOW Boxer. There isn’t a code or set of doctrines inside MGTOW aside from, don’t get married, don’t co-habitate for the most part…….
Some MGTOWs are monk, celibate, eunuchs for different reasons. Some of these men do have that higher moral / religious calling to be so. Some were burned so badly and mentally scarred……they could never change at 35, 42, or 47 into some ladies man / cassinova. Some just never because of disability (mental or physical) could never convince a woman to get horizontal. Many just lost the genetic lottery in the looks department (including those who indeed are height challenged) and really didn’t have a choice. This encompasses many of them.
Some MGTOWs do date here and there…….and actually like and have sex. An acasual girlfriend. Luck. Many do visit Vegas and go the legal legit route of paying a “professional” who of course will tell them he is the best she has ever had, and of course has the biggest penis she has ever seen……….and he pays, and tips very well. Some date and it doesn’t go anywhere……most though are that classic 35 year old guy who either shrugs his shoulders….figures / understands life is cruel……..and many become not bitter….but vengeful. Mean. Really mean deep down. The fault of MGTOW proper today is because “going your own way” now justifies this choice. Any man that dares try to help may indeed become the bad guy or the help is again a cheap mish-mash of blogs, one line solutions, or just fed into by a huge swath of men.
Leadership in MGTOW is rare indeed. It would take a very special man who is deeply committed to helping men, and UNDERSTANDS the plight and the reasons for going MGTOW or BEING MGTOW. There is a difference ..
Online counseling in a forum setting could be a lucrative field….crisis counseling…..and general help or encouragement with MGTOW could be a calling. “Hello Christian MGTOWs???????” Oh yeah, that would take a deep heart for men, lots of prayer and cutting into free time of telling other men how MGTOW they are…….and then dealing with non-MGTOWs telling the christian MGTOW how much of a beta-chump-blue-pilled-not-a-real-man-not-like-jesus he is. That could drive any man to stay away from helping or make him an atheist……
Leadership in MGTOW is hard to crack because it IS an umbrella of so much varied thought. They spar with each other….the last big fight was over MGTOW John doing that CNN interview (I took the side that he should not have agreed to an interview. Period…other disagreed). First, red flag one….CNN wants to interview????????? Its CNN. Second, a WOMAN was going to conduct it. Third, MGTOW was expecting a FAIR shot?????? What planet do you live on? You’re MGTOW………part of the reason why is exactly because of a place like CNN. Lastly, you KNEW that they would spin it into “women good, these men bitter, mean and angry”
Most were shocked at CNN and called them out for their poor journalism! What were they expecting? Are you guys that naive. Evidently many are. Too many.
I am telling you that its not a unified front. Its not all losers, nor is it all enlightened men living this amazing story of classical liberalism where they discuss Locke, Rousseau and debate Nixon’s domestic policy from 1973………
There are some good folks there. Met many in these forums. A few face to face (Stardusk for one in 2007). Had some great laughs…….but its not a philosophy and trying to make it into one at this point is a ship that sailed a long time ago.
It’s a place for single men who accept female nature for what it is, and prefers to keep women out or at a healthy distance out of the lives.
A good writer? Dalrock. Yes. Much better than myself, and many on the blog thing. He still could not clearly explain the chivarly thing, and how a few betas cucked it by goddess worship through arthinian legend and then all was well until 1970 or thereabouts during second wave feminism and how he (Dalrock) calling himself to all women he meets as “anti-chivalrous” is somehow genius.
It was clear as mud, but his rabid followers applauded it……hell, Dalrock could have become a feminist at the end, and all his most rabid followers would have applauded and agreed with him.
Look, we all know of The Beatles…..great band, will never be repeated in the same way. Great. Fab. So, Paul McCartney has some art show in London with his paintings. The critics and press are hailing his artwork as “Brilliant” and “Amazing”
It was terrible. Just because McCartney can write pop songs like a dime sore novelist (that is a compliment btw) and play a right handed bass upside down as a left hander (WOW) like normal…..it doesn’t make him automatically a brilliant painter or “artist”
Long story short: Just because you have a skill or talent, or are good at something…..doesn’t make you an expert everywhere else or at anything else you do. Yes, one can be multi-talented. Now I am not some Oxford level historian……but I know and have read a ton of history. Dalrock making the connections that he has with chivalry is pretty wide and has gaping holes and a very loose connecting thread. Does this take away from his writing? No. It just demonstrates one skill does not equal proficiency in all areas, or it should be assumed you do have talent in all areas.
People will applaud him no matter what he does it this point.
3. MGTOW men want to delineate necessary desires, in order to re-configure their lives without worrying about unnecessary desires.
…
Notable is the fact that none of the theorists that MGTOW men typically call upon is ready or able to discuss pillar 3.
#3 has always just seemed an “assumed” principle for anyone with a religious background. Hope you do not think I am trying to clog up your forum with Christianity, but since you are looking for an underlying philosophy for pillar 3, here are some relevant ancient texts that, to me, seem applicable.
generally, re delineate necessary desires, in order to remove/eliminate unnecessary desires:
Luke 14:33 – So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.
(as opposed to wanting more and more)
wrt the desire for more wealth than what is needed to meet daily needs:
Hebrews 13:5 – Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, .I will never leave you nor forsake you..
Ecclesiastes 4:6 – Better is a handful of quietness than two hands full of toil and a striving after wind.
Proverbs 23:4-5 – 4 Do not toil to acquire wealth;
be discerning enough to desist.
5 When your eyes light on it, it is gone,
for suddenly it sprouts wings,
flying like an eagle toward heaven.
Matthew 6:19-24 – 19 .Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
22 .The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light, 23 but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!
24 .No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.”
wrt the desire to sexually have many women
portions of Malachi 2:14-16 – … Because the Lord was witness between you and the wife of your youth, to whom you have been faithless … let none of you be faithless to the wife of your youth. .For the man who does not love his wife but divorces her, says the Lord, the God of Israel, covers his garment with violence, says the Lord of hosts. So guard yourselves in your spirit, and do not be faithless..
Hebrews 13:4 – Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous.
And the many passages about prostitutes / adulterous women, such as Proverbs 5 (lips of a forbidden woman drip honey, and her speech is smoother than oil, but in the end she is bitter as wormwood), 1 Corinthians 6:15 (Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never!)
Of course, it is easy to say “get rid of unhealthy desires”, but a bit harder to put into practice.
You guys are going at this the wrong way. Go into a a general MGTOW chat and bring this up. Way over their heads. Not applicable to their daily life of many who are facing depression, battling their ex-wife in the courts, or a man who was born with aspergers and needs help. Telling these men that “your situation can broken into four pillars of theory and thought……” and explaining psychological theories of why they are the way they are will AGAIN come off as you a man who does have sex / is married / can date women / has met great women / is or are friends with a few as
Just read this book, and you will be okay. Go to this webpage and study, real, real hard and you will have a happy life. Just do what I did and get better.
It comes off as outsiders studying them like an ant colony and then telling them what they are and how YOU are not like them.
The reason why Dr. Jordan Peterson has at least resonated with many in this group is because he talks to them like men. He has a knack of taking VERY theorhetical topics and breaking it down for many to understand. He also is not some strapping manly, man who will “neg” you because of your situation….in many cases that man could not help. Yes, he said some bad things about MGTOW…….but true humility was shown……he apologized. He said “I was wrong”
It was a BIG deal. Many accepted his apology because it was a first time that someone actually said “Hey, I was wrong”
Many of these men are lectured to about what is wrong with them, and how they behave……and how they are bitter 24 hrs a day (sure some are…….many are) but many are not. Many want to understand….but you breaking this down into pillars, theorums, scales, math equations and then throwing scripture at them……….
You are making for a circling the wagons situation and it won’t help them…..or you
All those Bible quotes JFP that you quoted you yourself do not follow, but expect men in MGTOW TO follow.
I agree. The theory is different from the practice. So, what, we shouldn’t do theory? Why not? Especially when you and I can do theory, and some of the guys who can only do practice will benefit from it.
As an aside, I suspect Derek is going overboard to caricaturize the typical married traditionalist, especially with stuff like:
Is Derek wired to explode without regular sex? Will his life just become unbearable without plugging in? I’ve gone months at a time without wimminz to deal with, and those have been some of the best and most peaceful parts of my life.
I met a married guy on an MGTOW forum. He didn’t want to fight divorce culture by frivolously divorcing his wife, but he was still an MGTOW in my estimation. He talked about the early days, when his wife was being a naggy bitch at the time of peak feminism. He said he quit having sex with her. When she protested, he went and serviced her, but made a point not to orgasm himself, and instead went to jerk off. His bitch wife shut her yap thereafter. I don’t know exactly how that works, but I don’t doubt it did work.
There were other MGTOW men who were planning to emigrate to places (Mexico, China, etc.) where the laws weren’t so punitive. I’d say that’s a huge gamble, but that’s their worry, not mine.
Boxer
Boxer. Trying to make MGTOW into a theory and study it as it why it exists, or why the appeal, or how it happened…..it just “is” and that probably is the best route to take. Yes, it is different than 1998 when there wasn’t even a name for this movement, situation or ideas……..but it still holds as a place that cannot be chained to a school of thought, or psychology or political. It just is. Before there was MGTOW…..even in the hey-day of traditional relationships in 1950’s America (which is made into today something it wasn’t……..many of those 1950’s marriages were leading the divorce curve into the late 1960’s early 1970’s) MGTOW existed. That guy who just was ugly and could not get married. The man who lost his arm or was disfigured in combat during Korea (the forgotten veterans btw). The guy who was just……er……not gay…but didn’t fit the stereotypes of manhood even back then and thus was single. Also, that guy who just liked working on his car and worked at the Chrysler plant. The man who just liked hunting or fishing. That man who was just a bachelor and liked his hi-fi equipment….and just was better off alone.
We hear about it more because of the Internet. We know that it has grown because of feminism, hypergamy that is encouraged by the people who say they are against it (game folks) and just plain economics. Finishing high school and getting a job at the local plant with decent benefits, good pay and the ability to be a provider on one income is OVER unless said man has that really good job and is in that high IQ area that warrants a good job. Most men are not going to be able to do this. If it was like this in the 1950’s……MGTOW would have grown much faster and would have been much more known by 1970 and today would be just a “single mans thing”
Me doing “theory”? That is a hoot. Everything I subscribe to or have a theory about has been done already by men much more capable than myself, or falls into opinion and is just that.
MGTOW itself won’t allow itself to be culled into matrixes, charts, and reasons why. It just “is” and the more people try to cull it, the more it resists. It’s just a family of ideas about female nature and how to navigate this world as a man who is single by choice, by circumstance or just by plain bad genetics. It is helpful to men, and it is harmful. What a man choses to do with what he learns is up to him….hence the appeal….and hence……many of its failures, enabling and men with wide eyes think “I could be the one to lead this, make a movement, get on TV……get women to like me, get money!”
I am not saying you are such a man, but it has been tried and to MGTOWs credit itself….it spits these men out after they fail or try.
As for Derek…….many men do want sex, and many in MGTOW resort to their left hand. The christian sphere will tell you to marry if you burn. Great. So, lets say a man is christian, burns and wants to marry…..but is ugly, disfigured, has a low IQ, is disable, is shorter than average…..BAD GENETICS……..is not manly by genetics……..and he cannot marry? What is he do? The answer christians then give “well, christianity is suffering. You suffer”
So this god, who evidently loves all so very much, made us in his image, and made these men ugly and everything else…..lets them burn and then tells them to suffer while other men who DID win the luck of the draw on the genetic scale who do BURN the permission to marry or find someone.
Yeah….easy for him to say
and of course……..the real bone then throw at these men “looks don’t matter to women, only a real great personality” and in the christian world “women just want a man who prays and is chasing god, and living it……..the heart matters way more than looks”
Who is believing this lie of women? Not MGTOW.
Everyone else is, and then they all scratch their heads “Hmmm, women have told us looks don’t matter, all these men just need to be funny……simple…….I guess men like being single and don’t want to change”
MGTOW understands that beauty is only skin deep, but ugly does go to the bone. Life isn’t fair
No, I wasn’t doing that. I was just trying to understand what you are saying. Clearly I don’t understand.
Boxer:
“Is Derek wired to explode without regular sex? Will his life just become unbearable without plugging in?”
Very possibly. It’s a powerful, natural instinct, which modern society will inflame 24-7 given half a chance. I suspect a lot of the rage in MGTOW forums is rechanneled frustration over no-sex, particularly in the under-age-40 demographic.
“I.ve gone months at a time without wimminz to deal with, and those have been some of the best and most peaceful parts of my life.”
There’s a difference between being able to regulate your appetite and having it completely denied by outside forces. If one imagines a man who no longer needs to eat because of some fancy medical apparatus, yet feels constant hunger because he’s never allowed to eat, it might not be a “necessary” desire but it’s certainly a distracting, unpleasant one. He probably won’t sympathize with a guy who skips the occasional meal because he’s not hungry.
I’m slight away from 50 and I wake up with a throbbing erection sometime several times a night. I can even feel a “kickstart” when a whiff of alluring perfume waifs by me by a woman I think is attractive. When I was a christian, I endured and “burned and suffered” because that was what I was supposed to do. So trying to get a wife, date…….impossible. “It’s gods timing” was the phrase, and when I would bring it up in mens groups I would be told about Paul. I was told “39, 42, 44, 46, 47, 49 is still young, plenty of time to find a wife!!!”
Hence none of the men saying this to men didn’t have to wait that long. In fact, all of them were married by 25
Paul was exceptional. I would say. “Well you can be too! God has an amazing plan for your life!”
So I dove into ministry, service. No, nothing satiated it…..and then with this service, of Boy Scouts, homless street ministry late at night on the dangerous streets of Fresno I was told “Who do you think you are, Paul???”
Dancing was the saving thing at the time that kept me from going crazy (and it still keeps me in check). Hard soul dancing to driving beats took a massive pile of tension off me. That helped more than any prayer, waiting on god to bring this amazing plan for my life (I waited ten years, and I still wasn’t worthy of church leadership, or a great christian gal….in fact most men told me I had a long way to go and women…even my age still wanted the 22 year old praise leader who was banging every girl in the local Corps….but he was so ‘blessed by god’according to the real man leadership.
And besides, most men live in “sexless marriages” anyway according the big shots…….so what’t the difference anyways?
I pray that Jesus bless and keey you safe. You are the hardest nigga on this web page.
So I dove into ministry, service. No, nothing satiated it…and then with this service, of Boy Scouts, homless street ministry late at night on the dangerous streets of Fresno I was told .Who do you think you are, Paul???.
Anonymous Black Man
No man my you the man! I know being black in the USA is a mutha at times. You the hard one here friend! ..
I can’t reconcile this…
…with Boxer’s thesis…
Derek…..its MGTOW. Some men do not care about sex, while with others there is indeed frustration……not just over sex and not getting any…….but the unknown answer of “why is it like this?”
A bible verse won’t fix it. Learning Game won’t fix it. You are dealing with a vast swath of men under an umbrella called MGTOW who do indeed are a very varied family of thoughts. What MGTOW can do is just offer help in how to navigate your life without women. Some will be pushing the merits of the new “sex doll” industry. Some are gonna go the prostitute route. Some just grow into other things and indeed “go their own way” they do it for themselves and move on……..yes it hurts, its unfair…….but many do have pretty interesting lives. Your statement is excatly why MGTOW cannot be harnessed under “the four areas of MGTOW are” and 2 v 4 and 3,2, v 1 and what would Marx do? What would jesus say?
This is not mathematics. This is not a study of a sample of men who are all white with an IQ between 90-110 with the average height of, and education level of. Some MGTOW are indeed doctors (well, met a few actual DDS’s in MGTOW chats). Some do indeed live at home in mom’s basement. Many, english is not their first language……tons of folks from India and Japan in there. Now you are adding cultural and social issues for that respected country. Good god….throw Game and PUA types in there as well……you have a cauldron of toil and trouble however for the most part…….they do get along…….why?????
Because the fundamental baseline of MGTOW is: don’t be married don’t cohabitate. Men only.
it’s not a philosophy. It’s not a theory. It’s not a process of testing and retesting and baselines and it doesn’t fit into a box. It’s not a religion. It’s not structured like a non-profit or advocacy group. It just is.
I’m not disagreeing with you. If yours and Gunner Q’s comments are true, I don’t understand how Boxer’s thesis can be true. Boxer seemed to think I was critiquing his position, but I was attempting to summarize it as I understood it and asking questions because I am just genuinely confused:
Well, I would imagine there are men in the MGTOW scene who would agree with him. I don’t know. I am not and never was considered a ‘guru’ in MGTOW….nor did I want to be……was not a content creator like Sandman….but have met one of the early guys……chatted in a livestream with about six people in 1999 with BarBar / Barbarosa. It has changed a lot……..has it grown. Wow has it grown. Today many in MGTOW don’t even consider me one? How’s that for strange?
Perhaps this study or the direction Boxer is looking at should focus as to not the why, but the how.