[Editor: I was going to write some more shit about Dalrock’s laughable entitlement complex, but Derek beat me to it. Because I’m a lazy fucker, I’ll just cut and paste his work into the front page. Take it away…]
So here we are again lads. Dalrock is complaining again. In light of the absurdity of it all, I’m going full snark on this review. You’ve been warned.
Dalrock states the following:
“Nathan’s edited version of the exchange leaves out our agreement to have a back and forth exchange, and it leaves out the part where Nathan wrote:”
Ah ha! Surely we have him here! The very best evidence so far of the Warhorn duplicity worth half a dozen posts! Pitchforks out boys!
“I’d like to sincerely understand and present your point of view, even where our camp diverges.”
Wow. Devastating.
Let’s put our learning hats on and do a little analysis, shall we? Let’s see what Nathan wanted to do:
1) To understand Dalrock’s point-of-view.
2) To present said point-of-view.
In other words, “I want to understand your point-of-view so I don’t misrepresent it.” Gah! My eyes!
Nathan made his best attempt at understanding Dalrock. The point of the discussion was to make a best-effort to get it right, but that didn’t mean he couldn’t have gotten it wrong. So, did Nathan present what he viewed Dalrock’s point-of-view to be? Yes, of course he did. He even presented what he thought Dalrock’s full point-of-view was by posting the transcript of the email exchange which he referenced in the podcast (!!).
What’s that you say? Nathan didn’t talk about every topic that was available from the email interview in full detail on a time-limited, tacky-humored podcast? Oh no!
Okay, so in all seriousness, Dalrock is upset that he didn’t get enough airtime on someone else’s show. He’s upset that the editorial discretion of the podcast edited out the majority of content of the interview. He can couch this in terms of “he lied to me” but that’s not a rational conclusion.
Lastly, consider now much time he has now spent not engaging in back-and-forth debate.
I’m very, very interested to see what happens to the pingback on this one.
Derek:
One thing that annoys me about manosphere types (including but not limited to Dalrock) is exactly this weird entitlement complex that you illustrate. I suppose we had to finally reach this point, to get to the implicit confession (in all its pathetic self-justification.)
The inherent weirdness in this discursive formula gets a too eager reception from the wounded men who find themselves ensnared in the web of the Christian MRA sphere, and it’s unfortunate in many ways. Dalrock has a legitimate message about traditional sex roles/differences, and once in a while, he’ll stray into a productive discussion; but, mostly, he’s off in left field, conducting another service in the Church of Gripes.
This is not limited to Dalrock. The fawning weirdos who follow Heartiste are another example. The unhealthy notion of entitlement is fueled by the intentionality of the URL, and the zeal of the readers which it attracts. It seems based in an unhealthy lack of humility which is decidedly unmanly.
Boxer
Seriously Boxer, I actually think Dalrock is completely fucked in the head. He is so blind to his faults that it staggers me beyond comprehension
And what’s worse is that Dalrock is untouchable, he is completely surrounded by his bubble of super moderation so that even if someone were to reprove him as the scriptures commands, the reproof would never get to him in the first place
Dalrock’s bubble of protection is made of 100 foot Vibranium which means that I highly doubt he even reads blogs like your one here which criticizes him
In other words, Dalrock is such a coward I doubt if he’s even aware of what other people are saying about him in the manosphere
Dear Necro:
I think you have a good point. While I can blame Dalrock & Co., for libeling critics (including me) as rapists, pedophiles, Satanists and trannies, there are other factors at work. You illustrate them in your next paragraph:
Agreed. Increasing social atomization is a factor in this bizarre behavior. The intentional nature of the internet forum combines with a lack of honest feedback from disinterested folks in meatspace to produce this sort of crapola. Having dozens of fawning asslickers allows the average blog author to start thinking too much of himself. All he gets is praise, so he starts buying into the fact that he’s some sort of genius who deserves endless catering and the kid-glove treatment.
Boxer
@necron
“In other words, Dalrock is such a coward I doubt if he.s even aware of what other people are saying about him in the manosphere”
Look at the bottom of the page here. See those pingbacks from your blog? You wrote the post on December 9 and there is a comment above it from December 18. Those pingbacks were not there a month ago. I know because I checked. If you recall I wrote a scathing post in the comment section here about how Dalrock moderates pingbacks. He allows mine, but not yours. It is curious that they suddenly showed up. Did you make a configuration change on your blog?
My husband simply thinks Dalrock’s been at this too long and has run out of things to say. We’re both rather bored of chivalry and complaining about the Warhorn podcasts. I did enjoy the Warhorn posts that preceded the podcasts; in at least some of these posts, Dalrock returned to stating things about marriage and feminism that I think are both true and useful.
Hi Derek
No I didn’t make any configuration changes at all….in fact I probably wouldn’t even know how to do that lol
What does it all mean though? I mean the pingbacks and stuff?
In a lot of ways I’m pretty clueless when it comes to Internet stuff
Dear Fellas:
I can’t blame him for not wanting to drive traffic over here. The big dog of the Christian manosphere can’t be promoting his critics, and all that. Interestingly enough, I do know that he reads this blog on the semi-regular.
I moderate the comments and pingbacks here, too. Notable example: this bitch here ain’t getting through any time soon.
Boxer
Greetings!
A lot of what I’ve been doing the last month or so is starting to read some of the things I used to read (namely my old blog roll) and attempt to get back to blogging like I used to at societyofphineas.wordpress.com. One thing about being roughly a year away from the Internet and spending time to try to clear up other things has been seeing the garbage that Dalrock, Deep Strength, et. al. has been producing. Of course, what I’ve been reading most on Dalrock’s blog has been his whining about Warhorn Media. Of course I had to listen to the podcasts too, to see what has been said. I honestly can’t say too much well about either party. I thought about finding Warhorn’s transcript and breaking down their side and how pitifully improper and unChristian a view it is regarding men, but dealing with the inane twits at Warhorn Media or Dalrock and his ilk would be “pearls before swine” as proven well by both.
As the writer of a blog that actually tries to be Christian and hew to the truth, where ever it may be found. I’ve had an opportunity to learn a great deal. Even before my unwilling hiatus, I had a lot of suspicions in dealing with Dalrock’s blog posts along with some of the other parties. Most specifically, I’ve seen that there’s nothing red pill about any of the “Christian” sites, mainly because they all still focus on pleasing women ala male mother need, but also that there isn’t very much “Christian” to Dalrock’s blog or a number of others at all. For those that know the Scriptures, you should know the teaching is there that following Christ is before all, including wives and children. I will note the numbers that have e-mailed me in the past, suggesting I should rebuke Dalrock in a Christian light for his blog because they thought I knew him and was in tight with him for some reason. I eventually plan on doing a post about these things, but elucidating on this isn’t the complete reason I wanted to comment.
What I wanted to point out is something I’ve noticed that is pretty much true for all blogs. A truism of all media is that people want to read an echo of their view points. The blogs that have successfully gotten readership like Dalrock or Heartiste are the ones that simply echo a majority of viewpoints, mainly men that are just seeking to actualize their value in terms of finding a woman to please/pedestalize instead of finding affirmation of their manhood within themselves. Coincidentally something anti-Christian at its very core.
The phenomena exists with Mainstream Media as well, with channels presenting a message consistent with either the right-wing (Fox) or the left-wing (MSNBC, CNN, etc). More or less, people don’t want to be challenged, but seek out people that say the same things that people want to read. Ultimately these outlets become mind-numbingly repetitive. This is something Warnhorn picks up in their criticisms of Dalrock – it draws commenters that are sympathetic toadies to him and will not question anything that he writes.
I note in looking at the readership of my own blog in the past that when I say things people don’t want to hear (including Scripture, the most astute observer of this was a feminist that attacked my blog), the numbers went away. But my interest in blogging was always about truth and not readership. And it definitely is not trying to make myself a figure to be “followed”, as Christ is the only one worthy of that for any “Christian”. A lot of my posting frequency went down, simply because I didn’t have anything fresh or worthy to say. I could have stuck to the same things ad-nauseam like Dalrock and ilk does (trust me the temptation was definitely there), but I would rather be spending my blogging time doing something useful and constructive.
The desire of readership to not be challenged with views different to them, coupled with the pride fostered in the blogger will cause the blogger to be overly aggressive in their moderation in order to curate an environment where the same message is presented with no dissent. This is done to both keep the current readership and to produce the message that the blogger is right and therefore must be followed to anyone who might come along.
More or less, Dalrock is simply the fruit of a man who got readers, let it get to his head and swell up his pridefulness, and ultimately sees himself as much better than others, especially the ones he targets. The interesting part of the Warhorn Media scuffle is that in finding a target that actually fought back, it revealed Dalrock and all of his sycophants for the sheer ugliness that they exude towards others.
(and now that I saw this got this long I may clean it up and post it to my own blog soon. We’ll see)
It’s not as if I think that Boxer or Dalrock can’t moderate comments and pingbacks. That’s not at issue. Dalrock generally allows pingbacks when I (and Boxer) criticize him. Yet he left Necron’s pingbacks in moderation for two months before accepting them? This militates against the claim made above:
On source WordPress site if you link to another target WordPress blog, they automatically get a special comment called a “pingback”. It contains a link back to your page. It lets people from the target know that someone from the source was commenting on that post. It’s common courtesy to allow the pingback to drive traffic between sites to “share readership.” However, if you don’t want people to know that someone is criticizing you, you can just delete the pingbacks.
Welcome, brother! Make sure to follow @timgayly over on twitter, too.
ballista…I remember your blog and I liked some of the really in depth stuff you posted. This was back in 2012, 2013…
My personal take for the Christian Man-o-sphere…..overall……the big ones like Dalrock, Deep Strength, even the “More-Than-Don’t-Have-Sex ” guy……..what needs to be said has been said about female nature, being a “real” man and Christianity. The underlying trappings of “game” “frame” “alpha” “looks don’t matter to women” et al have all been said not just there but on every PUA site, every Game site, every self-help blog for men……….every men’s magazine, every podcast, every v-blog
Little about Christian service and how or why…nothing on why men need Christ, even a successful man in work, trade or with women. How do you convince a well to do man with an excellent education, a good marriage, well behaved attractive children that he needs Christ? Lots of them out there.
……lots of gladhandling “Dear (insert name of blog / v-log / advice / ebook) you saved / changed / helped me in so many ways now my rebellious wife / dating life / live in girlfriend is so much more behaved. You are changing / saving men from suicide everyday your advice is simple, easy and should be required reading / study for every mens group.”
Reminds me of this kind of thing. Remember this?
“Dear Penthouse forum, I too did not believe any of the stories I read in your monthly forum but one day at work, my secretery decided just to come to work with no panties on because its was a really hot day outside………..thank you Penthouse Forum for giving me the tips, skills and ideas over the years of how to be better sexually with really hot women”
I don’t have a problem with Dalrock. He has given some good advice, and I have taken some of it and it has worked…..some of it was terrible……..and much of it was okay. No harm no foul. Some of it never even applied to me. His “usual gang of idiots” in the comments section I usually take issue with.
@seventiesjason
For my reading, you’re definitely one of the commenters that I wanted to talk to – I wasn’t going to comment and get into a fight I didn’t want to get into. I still blog (you can pick up the link by clicking my name here), and even restored the old blog.
>Little about Christian service and how or why.nothing on why men need Christ, even a successful man in work, trade or with women. How do you convince a well to do man with an excellent education, a good marriage, well behaved attractive children that he needs Christ? Lots of them out there.
You nail pretty much the exact problem with the “Christian Red Pill” as it were, and I’ve done a few blog posts to that end. For supposedly being Christians, they talk tons about worldly appetites and things and none about Christ. One of the major problems Dalrock, Deep Strength, the commenters, and others have is that while they cry about wives not submitting to the high heavens and even point to the Scriptures indicating that in marriage, they fail to place themselves under authority to Christ.
Dalrock and his sychophants speak against this in his life by his rejection of Bnonn and Pastor Foster and their follow-through in the comments, especially that men can’t be addressed for their sins. Warhorn Media also correctly called Dalrock out on not placing himself under authority. The main point of that post and the second one is that as troops placed under the command of an officer is not actually “their troops”, the wife given to a man by God is not really “his” but a ministry of stewardship given to him before the Lord (hence the whole “your prayers be hindered” part of 1 Peter 3:7. Both must give account to a superior officer as to how they are utilized for the goal of the wider “army”, and should expect dissension if they fall down in their duty both to care for the troops and obey the orders of their superior officer. If they are truly Christian, they need to recognize this. Otherwise, all they are is simply raging fools that will ultimately be revealed for what they are.
As for what I read, I know it’s hard to do, but personally all I can say is set your eyes upon Jesus instead of the things of this world and pray if it is His will for you to have a wife. For what you say you do, ministry-wise, I can easily imagine the first casualty of a relationship will be that ministry. Jesus first, all others last.
I just intended on hyperlinking “they fail to place themselves under authority to Christ.”. Please feel free to correct whatever happened that my markup didn’t work.
ballista74,
Personally, I find Deep Strength’s blog to be far more interesting than Dalrock’s. I’m not sure how I first found Dalrock but I know I appreciated his analysis of Census statistics and similar to be very useful. Unfortunately, those types of posts are now few and far between.
As to the Warhorn Media podcasts on the manosphere, I will agree that it has not put either side in a good light. If you’re seriously interested in the transcripts, I created one for the first podcast which you can find at Transcript of Warhorn Episode and Dalrock has posted a transcript of the second episode. Having suffered through the first podcast many times to create that transcript, I would not recommend listening to those “inane twits” other than a few soundbites to get a feel for how they actually talked. Apparently Warhorn Media is under the Clearnote Church where Tim Bayly is pastor, and I have seen enough from him to think that the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.
The echo chamber of this blog is that everyone is anti-feminist, but other than that the viewpoints diverge quite a bit. It is precisely this divergence, along with the free speech leanings, that keep me here. I don’t approve of a great deal of what Boxer espouses here: his language, his fornication, and his rejection of Christianity, among other things. Yet I value alternative thought because it is the only way I’ve found to stay intellectually honest. I also find it interesting that Jesus preferred to hang out with tax collectors and sinners.
I run two blogs. The first one is a blog on Christianity where I try to be both scholarly and pastoral (at the same or different times). I try to take it more seriously. The second one is my personal blog where I talk about everything else, including politics, opinions, and controversial subjects. I sometimes take it less seriously. While I write with a fully Christian leaning, I’m not always writing about Christianity explicitly. I think there is room for thought of all kind. That said, I think you are right. I find your comments to be challenging on a personal level.
(Dalrock allowed the pingback. I don’t know if I missed it when I looked earlier.)
You didn’t miss it. He commonly delays it, so that it’s buried in newer responses and doesn’t show up on the main page.
I echo the sentiments that Dalrock has probably been at it for too long.
Even I start to get tired repeating the same thing over and over…sexuality is messed up, feminism is evil, women aren’t mothers to dogs, many men are soy boys, promiscuity and the pill messed a lot of things up. But the problem is the other side doesn’t seem to tire repeating their mantra either. Every night some feminist news network has to talk about how women are empowered through politics or brushing their kids and husband aside to be the lead paper pusher at a corporation who doesn’t care about her.
I am a man who just cannot articulate as well as others on this medium. I have often joked with people over the decades that have become “friends” with me that it usually takes a bit of time on their part. That I am sure could be construed as selfish, and it probably is.
The problem at hand today with men in my position in the church (the single, straight, never married, childless, a dating life with a resting pulse at about zero) and maybe I’m being way to wide in the stats, but its probably about 15% of all men in church nationwide all traditions……..
The dating, vetting, and secrets about women many of the above men mentioned give
*A very A+B=C attitude. Do this, do that and voila……you will have a very devout and holy wife in no time, just like me
*It’s geared (as it should be I suppose) to men between 18-25
*For all the chatter about AWALT, chuchianity, the ‘sunday morning nightclub’ it seems to be that there are no women worth a “real Christian mans” time in church, except of course for the men that did find one.
*Looks don’t matter! Yet, go to the gym, bench this ammount, change your style……….hairstyle, get a really good job (but not too good, then you’re a beta), treat a potential date in a very un-Christian way………..it goes on, its game-lite and PUA for church
*Alll the advice STILL in the end: women…..sweet, demure, innocent, want to be led, pursued, teased, ready to be a helper…….they just want a leader….they just need men to step up and be real masculine men. Men? You need to change everything and anything about you. You need work, improvment, a challenge, women want this, women want that…..and then the slght of hand “Oh, we never cater to women…we do what we want, we’re men!!!” For the nonsense I hear about leadership and not caring what women think……….there seems to be a TON of advice catering to exactly what they want and expect.
*As much as I admire some of Deep Strenghts posts, his upcoming book about getting a wife / dating in a Christian sense….it will be lost on many men. Stats, charts, big words, tons of worldly stuff and with game n’ frame tossed in for good measure……….and still the assumption. Get muscles, a decent haircut, a good job (but not too good, you don’t ever, ever, ever want to be considered a beta in a womans eyes…..) looks don’t matter, lead a Bible study to get confidence and then you will have dates, and you can use the foolproof method to vet her out and have a great marriage by the time you are 25 and a half………..
I might add more later………..I wish I had an answer. I don’t. I appreciate these men at least trying to help, but their help is cloaked in an arrogance and it will drive more men away and hinder than help.
What brought me to Christ was not a pastor handing me a “track” or saying “here, read this verse.”
I honestly believed that he cared for me eternal well being, and honestly just liked me for who I was at that moment. He saw potentials, was willing to take the time……….and genuinely wanted to help.
According to that attitude, my marriage shouldn’t be successful and I should be unhappy and/or divorced. I stay in the ‘sphere for the anti-feminism, not the marital advice, which I don’t relate to much at all. Specific formulas are not particularly useful or applicable.
What I find most useful is the general wisdom. I get that here, where Boxer promotes Jack Donovan’s attributes of masculinity (Courage, Strength, Mastery, Honor), and at Sigma Frame, where he emphasizes emotional control, confidence, and leadership in your marriage.
@seventiesjason
>For the nonsense I hear about leadership and not caring what women think….there seems to be a TON of advice catering to exactly what they want and expect.
That’s part of the exact problem. Who are you serving? The fact they are doing this is exactly what makes them all blue-pill simps. Or as I say in a lot of my own blog writings, it’s making the proper oblations to please the goddess. The end-goal of those offerings to the women change with the voice in the manosphere, be it getting laid, dating, or marriage, but the offering and mindset stay the same. They’re there to present the typical traditional frame of men to women, whereby they actively seek out chances to submit to a woman. They subjugate themselves to women rather than to God, following into Adam’s sin and actively leading other men there. They demonstrate by doing this that they are indeed blue-pill and have no awakening or knowledge worthy of anything beyond what this world is, and nothing fit for the real Christian.
I saw this, so my focus when I blogged was more of a discipleship end where men need to find the dignity to find their own beliefs, stand up for them, and not cave in to anyone for acceptance, or even worse follow after most men of this day and age and lay out themselves as chattel for the fire for the sake of a woman.
Well Baliista………..in the man-o-sphere (Christian) about ten, twelve years ago all the advice for singles (men and women) on a base level was to “trust God” on all things, including getting a spouse….volunteer……..don’t make marriage into an idol………God’s timing is perfect……..now? These same chumps be it pastors or pundits “Ummmmm you may not get married, where does God promise you a wife? Besides there is no marriage in heaven and did you know Paul wasn’t married…..so don’t leave church, don’t leave religion (keep tithing), don’t be of the world…….you can serve and be just as like married people too….did you Jesus called the church his bride?”
It’s a consolation prize……….but while I was younger “Finding a wife is a good thing” and “Man needs a helper” and “Singleness….yeah, okay you’re single now….but most were never called to be single. Ask women out, they don’t bite. Go to the gym. Work out. Be a provider. WOmen just want a man to lead them…..looks don’t matter to women at all. Oh, and make sure you shower (yeah, as if I thought never bathing was going to make me irresisitable to women)
Feminism can be blamed to a point. The culture and peculiar times can be blamed too. My take? Its one mans opinion, so it means nothing:
God doesn’t plan your future, your marriage, your spouse, your future wife, if your children will be “popular” or not, God doesn’t loose a moment of sleep about your social / sexual situation. He could care less about your predictament in these areas. He doesn’t worry if you will be married or not. He didn’t have this “amazing plan” for marriage and then oh…..forty years ago ‘changed his mind’ and decided to make it a mess that it is today (the LACK of marriage) in the west but left it alone in Latin America, Africa, most of India, Asia becuase he has our ‘best interests at heart’ he doesn’t care (nor should He) if we are good looking or ugly. He could care less if you have game, or frame or if you read Rollos book, or adhere to Dalrocks law of feminism. I can’t say I had a personal talk with Jesus (and I am a little suspect of people who say He talks to them all the time), can’t say He has promised me anything except Righteousness in the end. That’s about all he really promises us.
If I am wrong, you will correct me on that above statement I am sure.
I hear over and over “you made women / sex / dating an idol” in your life, and I reply “no. you did, and forced a hand with no other option besides opting out. For all the talk about making “women” into idols and putting them on a pedestal, most of these guys in turn spend most of their time doing that by talking about them nonstop.
Just one man’s opinion
@seventiesjason
>all the advice for singles (men and women) on a base level was to .trust God. on all things, including getting a spouse..volunteer….don.t make marriage into an idol
That’s pretty much the good advice and lines up with Scripture. The problem a lot of people take is that they exalt marriage as a spiritual thing when it really is only a worldly thing that ends the moment you die. I made a lot of effort to point that out on my blog simply because people see marriage as a normative thing instead of a choice of God (Matthew 19:6).
The source of this is traditional feminism, where men are conditioned to “chase the beauty”, and are redefined to not be the image of God, but a worthless piece of chaff that’s sanctified by the approval and presence of a woman. At root, most everyone in the manosphere believe that their worth is based in gaining the approval of women by bringing their offerings. This is almost a universal in men, including those in the manosphere.
One of the brilliant deceptions of traditional feminism is that men have gotten completely fooled into believing they are the masters of marriage, instead of the truth being the opposite. This is the “red pill”, and ultimately most that claim “red pill” really aren’t for this reason – they do not acknowledge this fact.
As for your “opinion” paragraph, I disagree. I already pointed to the Scripture that God forms marriages. But at the same time, God is going to go after His concerns, and more importantly what is best for us. His concern is holiness and righteousness first and foremost. As marriage goes, God created it as a holy thing, but men have this habit of getting in the way and mucking things up with their sins. I’ve taken great pains to chronicle these things on my blog. The devil takes a lot of effort at destroying marriage, because it is a symbol of Christ and His Church, and ultimately has succeeded. Referring to these matings that we have today as “marriage” in the West is a complete joke – “civil union” is the more accurate term.
All I can say in my own case is that I have seen this threat a long time ago. I’ve said “if marriage takes me away from Jesus, I don’t want it”. I also say if Jesus wants me to have marriage, He’ll make it happen. What is more important? The afterlife, or now? You have a lot more vision regarding what’s going on than most and see what is going on. The world via traditional feminism tells men that they have no value if they aren’t yoked in slavery to a woman. I know it’s hard to remind yourself that’s a lie, but it would be wise to remind yourself that you have value in the sight of God independent of whether you are married or not and root yourself in that value instead of whether you are married.