Down below, I noted (in the margins, and with a cynical air) that whenever anyone uses the term “real American,” he’s inevitably talking about those people who not only come from his hometown, but more specifically, those who agree with him.
For a white nationalist, a real American is not merely another white dude from the USA, it’s another white nationalist, who agrees with him. To the white multiculturalist, a real American is not the white nationalist, above.
some wild-eyed anarchist (visit the latest at his blog here) wrote…
In my instance, I am (in agreement with H.L. Lovecraft) referring to the descendants of the primarily Anglo-Saxon Protestants who colonized America in the 1600s and composed the ethnic stock during the Revolution. Depending on the person, someone might go further in history up until the major immigration waves in the mid-1800s.
The problem with this definition is that it includes guys like me, namely non-Americans. My people (and not just one, but several) were colonists. Like most ethnic Mormons, I’m descended from WASP types who originally lived in New York, New Jersey and Ohio. Both my mother and father are descended from colonists (surprisingly, for two Mormons, they aren’t descended from the same people.) I’m eligible to join the General Society of Mayflower Descendants, several times over. Isn’t it ironic…
Given that we’re thinking about nationality of late, I thought it would be fun to attempt to prove my own theorem wrong, by trying to construct a workable definition of real American.
In the first place, a real American isn’t a guy like me. There are few things I’m more certain of than that. If you were born someplace else, or even if you were born in the U.S. but raised someplace else, you simply don’t make the cut.
“But Boxer,” I hear you cry, “I spent my whole life an hour away from the border! I speak English and grew up with Sesame Street! ” So did most of the three million residents of Juarez and Tijuana. Sorry, bub. Sucks to be us.
SFC Ton wrote a comment, someplace, that went something like…
It’s a tough call but I will chose my race above all else. In part because your race is your extended family and in part because if Whites become a minority my child and grandchildren will be hunted down by non Whites and we owe our offspring certain things
Sergeant! Good News! There are millions upon millions of white folks, dying to get into the U.S.A.. Here’s a couple:
This is an uncopyrighted photo that was taken in Kabul, Afghanistan. The Afghans consider themselves the original “Aryans.” They’re certainly white (and those that aren’t look like white people with just enough Arab or Berber admixture to be the type of almost-white who would pass easily in New York or Atlanta).
Unfortunately, they’re also prone to blowing shit up, running over pedestrians in their trucks, and various other forms of mayhem.
NAAALT, of course. I work with one such fellow. He seems nice enough, and it’s clear from his features that I share a closer common ancestor with him than with many North Americans. In answering the only pertinent question: is he a real American? Not yet. Maybe when the Muslims take over, but that’s a few years off.
But hey, forget the Afghans and Pakistanis. There are about thirty-five million white folks in Canada. As a guy who escaped that cold and frozen shithole, I suppose I ought to beg SFC Ton not to welcome all these limp-wristed faggots and ugly feminist dykes en masse.
Trust me, you don’t want too many of us here. This country is better without Canadians in it. Please, please, please take my word for it.
Gunner Q wrote one of the more interesting possible responses to this question on his blog.
The way I would restore North America: Disempower women completely. Eliminate the welfare swamp. Free rides to the border, one-way, but if any ethnics want to earn their food, learn English and assimilate into American principles such as rule of law, they can stay. Lastly, put the death penalty on most violent crimes as well as women who get pregnant outside marriage.
Would that restore white America? Probably not; race issues would remain, therefore I would be counted a failure by evolutionary principles. But it would be an orderly society that honors its roots and is a land of justice. The clear trend in the New Testament is that God prefers a just society to a uniform society.
Setting aside the wimminz question, Gunner seems like a Steve Bannon type. A civic nationalist. I like civic nationalists. Some of my best friends and all that. In reality, though, the civic nationalists remind me of no group other than die-hard Marxist-Leninists. Whenever I talk to them, it always goes something like:
You know we’ve tried that shit for a couple hundred years, right?
Wrong, fascist! It has never been tried!
You haven’t heard of the Paris Commune in France? The Spartacist Uprising in Germany? You ever hear of the USSR? Does the Bolivarian Revolution in Venezuela not ring a bell? These were all socialist movements, and they’ve all failed spectacularly.
Fuck you, bigot! Those were all capitalist movements hijacked by crypto-fascists like you. Our revolution will be pure! We’ll get it right this time! I bet you hate black people, too!
Swap a couple of words for their civic nationalist cognates, and the above conversation is precisely similar to ones I’ve had with neoconservative Americans (including and especially the gratuitous accusations of racism).
The civic nationalists of today, like the goony communist ideologues of yesteryear, imagine they are going to succeed in compressing disparate peoples and nations to critical mass. Nevermind that everyone else has failed. The constitution and magic dirt will make it happen, somehow.
No matter how hard I try to construct a workable definition of real American, I’m unable. That doesn’t mean that the term can’t be well-defined. It means that I’m unable to complete the job. Can you?
Are there such things as real Americans? What part of America do they come from? Are they racially similar, or not? Are they Yankees or do they sing Dixie? Sound off and let me know…
It’s hard to say what classifies as being a “real American”
A lot of people in New York have Italian heritage, with 1 or both parents being Italian YET I classify them as being “real Americans”
Is it the fact you were born in America, does that make more of a difference?
I don’t know if it’s just me, but I would never classify those Afghan children as being “white” so therefore they are not “Americans” to me….even though they look lovely and I wish them no harm
Does it mean you have to have come from Anglo Saxon stock to be classified as American? I pretty much lean towards that viewpoint…..If you come from the U.K, Ireland, but you were born in America, that pretty much makes you an American……I’m open to correction though, never really thought about it too much
This is an important point that both liberal and conservative Americans like to seize upon, and I’m glad you made it. Whenever I have these conversations in meatspace, I inevitably get accused of wanting to indulge in wanton genocide.
Like you, I wish them well. I don’t know how you don’t see those kids as white, but whether they are or not, I have nothing against them. I just don’t want them coming here, to build a mosque in my neighborhood. They have their own country, and they ought to stay there.
There are two counterexamples I can think of immediately. The first is native anglophones who descend not from the U.K. or Ireland, but from Holland, Sweden France and Spain — all of whom would be white, and all of whom descend from original colonists (Sweden and The Netherlands were in Manhattan before the British). I don’t see how we couldn’t include them, especially if we’re including Irish descended anglophones, who didn’t get over here until the mid-1800s.
The second has to do with being “born in America.” America (by that you mean the USA) includes some pretty disparate places: Puerto Rico, Alaska, dumpy Air Force bases in Italy… These aren’t places that instill any sort of cultural homogeneity. Even if the people in question are descended from the Mayflower colonists, they’ll have wildly different childhood experiences, and end up very different types of people.
American Nations: A History of the Eleven Rival Regional Cultures of North America .. by .. Colin Woodard
It’s an interesting read .. even for a hill-billy from north alabama.
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Now my view .. as if anyone actually cares .. lol
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First .. I had a strong desire to give of myself, after college, to serving my nation. (USN Submarines / Nuclear Power Operator)
Second .. a “Real American” is a moving target .. kindda like .. are you normal? Well .. not really.
Because I’m not normal .. if I was the NORM everyone would have the same story (or IQ .. and mine ain’t normal). So thinking you’re normal don’t make you a real american. And I fear everyone thinks they’re normal .. and if you read to the end .. I fear they may be right.
So we can identify with .. there are different real americans. If not .. then .. we would be playing identity politics from the very beginning.
So .. how do I define a real american .. simple .. I believe GOD endowed us with natural rights .. rights worth fighting for .. and not just for us .. but for every man (within our borders) to enjoy. And they’re written in your heart.
I suppose I’m more civic minded by your previous example.
And though I hold firm to THE US CONSTITUTION .. it’s just paper. It has to be internalized to project its power. That is to say .. it (the paper) doesn’t make you special .. you make it special. And if all of us did that we would have true power over our government. Instead (normal) people hope that a piece of paper will save them. A real american is resilient and doesn’t count on paper to save him.
But how? LOL .. they’re many paths to the same destination. You’re responsible for your path. Travel with bold confidence. That’s how we forged this great land. Many different paths (of men) rolled-up their sleeves and lived boldly with no gar’aunt’teed outcome. To make a better future for their families and their kids families.
Of course I believe all countries should have defined Borders .. Language .. and Culture (e.g. the book). Without that you have nothing. So along with sacrifice you have to have standards / a bushido.
Having lived abroad and in almost every region in the USofA I think what makes us real american’s is a sacrificing rugged nature not looking for a hand-out .. with a vurtious spirit for his community (i.e. family).
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As a side note .. I believe that a nation is nothing without a strong since of identity .. anyone can call themselves an american .. but do you walk the parchment (e.g. you know the one) with conviction? Or are you an infiltraitor who wishes to bend our culture to yours? One works and the other is at war with what it is to be a real american.
If I could roll the clock back to pre-1964 immigration I would. If I could undo the 19th Ammendment I would (even though th wimminz could vote in over a dozen states at the time). I would even go back to make it such that only men who own land could vote. Because those men have skin in the game (e.g. die to protect it if necessary).
They’re other things I would do to restore america.
But, being I am not in charge. I’ll end with the outcome of not maintaining what it means to be a real american. That is to say fighting for america and everyones right to equal opportunuties (not outcomes).
And I watch my country redefine what being a real american means .. fat .. lazy .. immoral .. selfish .. ungratful .. entitled .. tyrannical .. in-debted (heavily) to entities that hate the american idea’s. Sigh things that are not what a real american is.
I part with this ..
A real american is like pornography .. you know it when you see it .. never be sorry for what you are and what you believe .. a real american is a thief and a saint .. and if you don’t fight for what’s right .. you’ll find out you can be replaced .. history is full of violence .. and a real american is ready to defend his beliefs .. even if it costs him his sacred honor / life.
Thanks for the linkage and continuing this discussion. –
I think we should first differentiate “white” from “American.” An American is white, but not all whites are Americans. White nationalists do not really care about this distinction, but it is important.
The Welsh are white, but they are a distinct ethnic group with a common language and history as a people that separates them from others.
Before I used the term “real American,” but perhaps “ethnic Americans” sounds less political.
The reason I think creating a workable definition is important is so that we can get at the heart of what is causing so much angst and tension in the USA today. The Preamble of the Constitution talks of “our posterity.” Those are ethnic Americans, but many are not and they tend to have competing attitudes, views, beliefs, and ideas concerning the nation and its essence.
An ethnic American sees the history of the nation as an extension of his own family history. My ancestors were in Boston by the 1630s, so they were here almost as soon as English peoples arrived.
Now compare that to an acquaintance of mine whose family is 100 percent white, but the grandparents emigrated from a European country. I would not consider them ethnic Americans. They may be “Americanized,” but they are not going to treat America’s history and institutions the same way.Up until 50 years ago or so, their family history took place in an entirely separate nation. The American Founding Fathers were not their people.
It’s funny that people get so emotional about this, because I’m looking at it from an anthropological lens.
When you add the word “ethnic american” you deaf’uh’nut’lee change how I would answer the question.
BUT .. nobody is naturally (*originally*) from the (now) USofA. Not even the native american indians. They travelled here and settled across north america. We white americans violently & not so violently took / bought the now USofA.
So how far back do we go? If your family didn’t fight in the rev’o’lew’shin’airee war .. you can’t be an “ethnic” american? Where does it end .. if you don’t fall from the tree of the founders you can’t be an ethnic american?
Being an American is an expression of your core beliefs (that har’men’eyes with other american values). Being an Ethnic American is even harder to put my finger on .. but I agree it would be a white nation.
“Being an American is an expression of your core beliefs (that har.men.eyes with other american values).”
I addressed that in my proposition nation essay, which Boxer linked to in a previous post.
People have to have a common history and speak the same language, meaning the words they use have to have the same meaning and definitions.
“So how far back do we go? If your family didn.t fight in the rev.o.lew.shin.airee war .. you can.t be an .ethnic. american? Where does it end .. if you don.t fall from the tree of the founders you can.t be an ethnic american?”
We have to keep in mind that this is not a moral issue, but one of proper definitions. What makes a collection of people a certain ethnic group, on top of race, is a collective experience that shapes their attitudes, views, beliefs, traditions, and customs. The War of 1812, for example, helped form the basis for the Canadian collective identity by defending their independence from America.
This matter is a lot easier to wrap our heads around once we begin looking at other ethnic groups other than Americans. As I’ve said before here and on my own site, people treat the American identity as a religious rather than ethnic one, so segregating people within or without comes off as elitist. But saying someone isn’t an American or can’t be an American has nothing to do with their moral character.
However, I get why this is distressing to Americanized non-Americans in America when they hear this. If they are not Americans, then what are they? You have a identity crisis on an epic scale.
“I thought it would be fun to attempt to prove my own theorem wrong, by trying to construct a workable definition of real American.”
The missing ingredient is Protestantism. The US Constitution is heavily influenced by Protestant concepts, namely that everybody is capable of following law (as opposed to the rule of men, the Catholic trend) and decentralization of power (the secular version of ‘priesthood of the believer’). However, implementing this requires holding abstract ideals ahead of blood loyalties.
This has proven to be a problem with Protestantism itself. In fact, the reason Protestants founded many colleges is because one cannot be Protestant without first being literate. For all its individualism, it’s actually the highest-maintenance branch of Christianity. Many people cannot or will not be disciplined enough to put ideals above self-interest.
So, a real American is somebody who accepts American/Prot principles. Turns out that many races have serious, probably genetic issues with that. They believe “my race, right or wrong” and follow powerful individuals seen as proxies for notions of good & evil. It seems that Protestantism comes closest to God while Catholicism comes closest to men.
The only way American society can function is restricting citizenship to people who accept the founding principles. Whites accept those principles most easily thanks to our combination of high intelligence and altruism born of harsh climates but it would be unjust to assume lesser races cannot accept them, or that whites never reject them.
TL;DR. America’s Protestant roots means we actively reject race as a form of identity and adopt ideological loyalty as our identity. This does make us comparable to Communists; both reject blood loyalties for ideology. But Communists also reject God.
Since we’re talking definitions, “civic nationalism” is a serious misnomer. The civic nationalists flood my country with ethnics then encourage them to stay ethnic, bum out on welfare and vote (in their native languages!) for more of the same. Then they outlaw their own, native children from being “overrepresented” in the working world. Then they demand separation of church and state so the state no longer has a conscience. Then they deficit spend into eternity. Then they use the military for selfish profit and feminist experiments. Is there any way to destroy a nation that civic nationalists reject?
When did I ever advocate any of their policies? I am not a civic nationalist. I am simply more interested in draining the entitlement swamp and forcing loyalty than declaring all coloreds to be enemies. Unlike the Communist, if they don’t want to speak English and follow the Founders then that’s okay with me. God bless them all the way to the border.
Actually it sounds dangerous.
We have never put a litmus test on the Presidency Of The USofA so therefore it seems un-natural to apply one to citizenship to the ethnic / real american status.
I’m not arguing against such a designation (i.e. ethnic american) .. I just can’t find it in The US Constitution.
Why would this be necessary? (Forgive me for not having read your previous posts on the issue.)
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